The Redhunter

Great report and pics! Thanks, Tom!

TRH,

From my perspective, Sarah Plain represents the worst America has to offer. My feelings for her are the most moderate in my immediate family. My wife, a teacher, and my two young adult daughters loathe her.

Are there two Americas? (well there are three: North America, Central America, and South America, but you know what I mean) Sarah Palin is out promoting that idea 24/7. To her there are the "real Americas" and then there are the 100,00 presumably "fake Americans" that gathered in Civic Center Park in Denver to hear Brarck Obama on Sunday.

To me, Sarah Palin isn't a demon. She is very astute and driven political animal. She is also way too religious for me. I distrust ambitious political animals (see Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama by way of example but not limitation) and I ddistrust people who beleive they know God's will, at least God's will as it applies to the rest of us.

In addition, in her elected roles to date, she has proved to be secretive and to favor her inner circle, regardless of qualification.

So to me, Sarah Palin is the second coming of George W. Bush, only this is a more extreme version.

I have had quite enough of clueless governors from large western states who think w/ their guts instead of their brains and beleive they are on a mission from God.

You know what? I am not alone.

Here is something else. If one of my daughters had come to me at ager 17 when they were juniors in HS and said: "Dad, I am five months pregant," I would have considered that pregnacy a collective family failure, not just a failure of my daughter being able to count to 28. Teen pregamncy doesn't just "happen" and it is not to be promoted or excused.It occurs sure enough but almost always when children make poor decisions and parenyts aren't paying attention.

Tom, you have castigated Brack Obama for making poor choices w/ respect to his acquaintances as is your right to do.

Well I am rather unwilling to promote a candidate who was not paying attention to one of her children.

I am always ready to debate policy. I am ready to debate thoise policies that Sen. MCCain advocates.

In this instance, I do not need a person telling me that somehow I am not a "real" American b/c I do share her ideas or her personal beliefs, you betcha.

TLGK

What a bunch of nonsense, Loop.

I don't expect everyone to like Sarah Palin, and knew you wouldn't. Sarah Palin is certainly a Rorschach test. But I did rather expect you to post a more rational comment than the one you did. Rather, you make a number of cheap allegations and for some reason seem to have a problem with religion.

"Sarah Plain represents the worst America has to offer."

The worst? So the woman who cleaned up Alaska politics is worse than Ted Stevens, Frank Murkowski or Randy Ruedrich? Or for that matter worse than liberal crazies like Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, John Murtha, or Cynthia McKinney? I wouldn't even say that Barack Obama is "the worst America has to offer."

"She is also way too religious for me."

What does that even mean? Conveniently, you don't elaborate. Is it because she takes her religion seriously? Because it's not just a Sunday morning thing then back to business-as-usual for the rest of the week? Because she isn't like liberal Catholics like Joe Biden (and Mario Cuomo) about how "my religion teaches x but my public policy is different"? She doesn't talk religion on the campaign trail, or use it to justify her foreign policy. So she probably reads her bible every day, is active in her church, does a daily devotional, believes that God put her on earth for a reason, has a conversation with God daily, and so on. Guess what? So do I. So do most people in America and around the world who take their religion seriously, whether they be political conservatives or liberals. bty, was Dr King "too religious" for you? He used Christianity to justify his actions, you know.

As for the "mission from God" comment, that's bigotry pure and simple and I'm disappointed you would sink to that level. God put each of us on this earth for a reason, a "purpose" if you will. He has a plan for each of us. This is standard Christian theology (and applies to other religions as well) and politically liberal Christians believe it too. By turning this into "mission from God" you show your true colors.

When I go after Sen. Obama it's because of the specifics of Jeremiah Wright and "Black Liberation Theology." I try not to take cheap shots on this blog. And I think I've said this before, but I'm actually glad when Democrats bring up their faith. Many times their understanding of Christianity and it's role in the public sphere is different than mine, but at least they're talking about it and take it seriously which I see as a good thing.

Lastly, are you saying that no one who has had a child get pregnant or do anything else that they shouldn't have (like get drunk and caught) is disqualified from public office? If so, I trust you hold all other politicians to the same standard, so you must have thoroughly investigated all of them, right? Do you have any idea how many leaders throughout history would be disqualified on this basis? It's hard to know if that is what you mean, though, because you just throw out that "collective family failure" bit without coming to a conclusion.

You claim to be a lawyer, that you only want to discuss issues, and you constantly castigate Ralph for "bearing false witness," yet in your comment you sound like a diarist for the Daily Kos off on a rant.

Sarah Palin may accuse Obama all she wants of being a socialist because he wants to "spread the wealth around."

What's so funny is that Palin already has, and was proud to tell the New Yorker just that:

In a New Yorker interview before her selection as VP nominee Sarah Palin said of Alaska, "we're set up, unlike other states in the union, where it's collectively Alaskans who own the resources. So we share in the wealth when the development of these resources
occurs."

"In fact, Alaska's Clear and Equitable Share (ACES) program, which manages the redistribution of oil wealth in Alaska, brings in so much money that the state needs no income or sales tax. In addition, this year ACES will provide every Alaskan with a check for an estimated $3,200."

It is painful for me to see these attacks on Sarah Palin. I myself am not a terribly educated man. I am nowhere close to Harvard Law, like Barack Obama. But I have read what I've read carefully. I've read Aldous Huxley's book, BRAVE NEW WORLD. And I've read Orwell's 1984 and ANIMAL FARM. I myself grew up on a farm and when I first read ANIMAL FARM I thought it was an "ag how to!" In any case what I take away from my limited scholarship is this: societies which cherish and protect the rights of the INDIVIDUAL thrive, as do their citizens. Societies which claim to operate on behalf of "THE MASSES" fail. That's a farmer's take on all this, take it or leave it.

HelenWheels

Nice try but no cigar. It has become popular on the left to claim that Palin is no different than Obama on this score, but it just isn't so.

As you yourself said, the people of Alaska own the natural resources. It is, after all, on public land. So what she did was require any company that wants access to them to pay the owners, the people of Alaska, what amounts to royalties. Despite what she says, it's not really any different than what other states or the Federal government does. They too require companies pay a fee - a lease - before drilling or mining. The difference is that they just collect a lot more of this money in Alaska relative to it's population so they don't need an income or sales tax, and again as you say it's even more than the state government needs to meet it's needs. But again, the federal government too collects a fee from companies before they can drill or mine.

Obama, on the other hand, doesn't like that some individuals make a lot of money relative to other individuals. He wants to take from high-wage earners and just give it to low-wage earners.

Actually, it's worse with that for Obama. From his infamous 2001 interview on Chicago public radio station WBEZ.FM, Obama would use the courts to redistribute wealth if he could get away with it.

If you come back, HelenWheels, tell us what you think; should or should not the government of Alaska, or any other state or federal government, charge fees to corporations to drill or mine on public land? And what do you think of Obama's 2001 interview and his plan to "spread the wealth around" by taking from high income earners and giving it to low income earners? Don't just throw things out, come to conclusions.

Sorry Tom. But this is the way I feel and it is rational. So Sarah Palin did not push to Creationism in Alaska schools. The issue for me is what she believes. If she believes the earth was created in 4004 BC according to Bishop Usher, that's a problem for me.

As for The U.S. being on a mission from God in Iraq, that is lunacy.

If you believe that God put us on earth for a purpose, will support you all the way until you decided to run for office be it president or dog catcher.

Oh yes, b/c I am not a Christian, I think you can understand how I react to in-your-face Christianity. Dr. King did use religion to gain his ends, but his ends were humaitarian, not political, and he wasn't running for office.

Why do I think Sarah Palin is the worst America has to offer? See my comments on how much she resembles George W. Bush. Is this a person who could make any pretence of being more than what she seems to be which is the "us" and "them" variety of politico.

The fact that her teenager became pregnant doesn't disqualify her from office. It merely proves that there was some lack of parenting skills. Those skills aren't necessary to hold public office.

But if "us" is unwanted teenage pregancy and a premise of being on a mission from God and seriously proposing a debate in the public schools between Creationism and Evolution, then by God, I am one of "them" and God help the United States if another one of "us" is elected.

You have, over the last few months, identified strategic and tactical failures in the McCain campaign. Choosing Sarah Palin as VP was surely the worst. Remember, as much as she may have energized the GOP base, she also galvanized the liberals and moderates in this country, who, after eight years of thinking w/ the gut and wearing religion on the sleeve, are unwilling to have someone like Sarah Palin, a heartbeat away from the presidency, especially when the heartbeat belongs to John McCain who is 72, whose grandfather died at age 61 and whoe father died at age 70.

All the negative stuff about Obama would be out there anyway. What if MCain had hose Joe Lieberman as VP? I think he would be ahead in polls.

TLGK

Loop, I can see that you are willing to believe every trash argument you hear about Palin. Nothing you say about her is even true. She never said we were on a mission from God in Iraq. You have no business every again telling Ralph or anyone else that they are slandering Obama when you do just the same to Palin.

Lieberman as his vp? Are you out of your mind? Lieberman is a liberal on domestic issues and conservatives would have abandoned the party in droves. They barely like McCain as it is. You may bemoan this but it is the political reality.

Lastly, if an alleged lack of parenting skills doesn't disqualify her from office, why did you bring it up? Answer; you're a dirt throwing trash talker. I'm done with you.

Tom,

According to WikiAnswers, correcting a misquote by AP, Sarah Palin said in church: "Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also for this country, that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is a mission from God."

I do not think I misrepresented the Governor.

Meanwhile, the Conservatives have better get their unknwowable together b/c if McCain loses the lection, Conservatism will be irrelevannt from a national political standpoint. I understand that Conservatives do not endorse McCain wholeheartedly, if at all, but the GOP and the rest of the country, for better or worse, seem to be moving away from extreme Conservatism. Obviously, the count won't be in until a week from today but the electorate seem to be saying, "We have had enough of people who have professed themeselves to be Conservatives."

As we have discussed previously, while in power, the GOP did not act like Conservatives but it certainly cloaked itself in that flag.

As to the issue of Bristol Palin's pregnancy, here it is in in a nutshell. "Real Americans" pay attention to their children and prevent them from engaging in unsafe behaviors. I am sick to death of having my patriotism and many other things about me impugned. The preganncy issue isn't trash unless you consider that aspect of the Palins' lives to be trash.

TLGK

What is really interesting is watching old conservatives like George Will criticize her, while some forward looking Republicans really see her as the future of the party. I don't support her or her policies, but she has really excited the Republicans looking to move beyond the failed Bush era.

Yes, loop, I am of course fully aware of the quote. And if you think it means that she is a religious nut who thinks that because God personally commanded us to invade Iraq then you are drinking the left-wing koolaid. One more time - God put all of us on this earth to achieve His will. God has a purpose and a plan for us and everything we do. We are all on a "mission" if you will. This is all standard Christian theology. I have already explained the concept to you but if you choose to believe the Kos version there is nothing I can do for you.

What gets me is that on our email train you spend so much time admonishing Ralph for something he says about Obama, yet here you pass on the same type of stuff about Sarah Palin. You do the exact same thing you accuse him of doing.

But since religion is so important to you, are you aware the during the primaries the Democrats held two major forums in which they discussed religion? It's true. The first, in April, was a"Compassion Forum" at Messiah College in Pennsylvania. At this forum Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama answered questions posed to them by religious leaders on the subject of faith and compassion. The second, in June was attended by John Edwards, Barak Obama, and Hillary Clinton. It was called the Presidential Forum on Faith, Values and Poverty and was hosted by Jim Wallis of The Soujourners, a liberal Christian group.

Can you imagine the outcry from your side if the Republicans had done this?

And stop your whining about having your patriotism questioned. I have neither the time nor the energy now to go over all the reasons why the left has had this thrown at them, but it's generally because they (and I speak broadly) 1) supported the war at first but bailed on it as soon as the going got tough (modern day Copperheads, I say), 2) said they believed that Saddam had WMD but when we found out he didn't have stockpiles, instead of accepting their half of the responsibly started in with the "Bush lied!" routine, 3) the left believes - no trumpets - every story of an alleged American atrocity (see John Murtha and Haditha, and he was never sanctioned by his party) as soon as it comes out and almost seems to revel in them, 4) is fixated on the Iraqi civilian dead count and of course blame everything on us, completely and conveniently forgetting that Saddam was murdering his own people right and left and started two major regional wars.

I'm done here let's move on, but if you want the last word it's yours.

jason, your comment is as always insightful. I generally agree with your analysis. I too am interested in why some conservatives dislike Palin. Truth be told I haven't had time to look into the details but you can believe it's going to become an issue in the years to come regardless of who wins on Tuesday. Whether anybody likes it or not Sarah Palin is not going away.

What I like most about Palin is that she took on the corruption in the GOP up in Alaska and defeated the good-old-boy network decisively. I disliked Ted Stevens and am glad to see that he got what was coming to him, even though in the short term it hurts my party. As you and I have discussed on many occasions I am disappointed (to say the least) with the GOP leadership in Congress during the Bush years and we need to clean house. I think you can appreciate that.

"As to the issue of Bristol Palin's pregnancy, here it is in in a nutshell. "Real Americans" pay attention to their children and prevent them from engaging in unsafe behaviors. —TLGK"

Bwahahahahahahah! Got any teenagers, boy?

Alison. No teenagers any longer. The ladies are just turned 21 and about to turn 23. Interestingly, I just read an article in this week's The New Yorker Magazine by Maragaret Talbot caleed "Red Sex, Blue Sex: Why Do So Many Evangelical Teenagers Become Pregnant." You can find at www.newyorker.com

Tom. I am not following you. Ralph passes along whatever suits him w/o checking the provenance.
I do not think I have relied on anecdotes that later proved false.

Meanwhile, so far as the war in Iraq is cooncerned, what progress or lack thereof has occurred w/ respect to reaching an agreement w/ the Iraqi government about continuing the presence of U.S. troops in Iraq?

I continue to harbor the same feeling that I have since b/f the invasion. At its ebb, it is a misgving. At its flow, it is a fear.

That feeling is, that sometime between 5 minutes and five months after the last U.S. troop, or perhaps the last combat brigade, leaves Iraq, the sacrifice of our country in general and our troops in particular is going up in smoke.

TLGK

You hate black people, don't you? Now I know what mommy's up to.

Oh Michael ("WTF"), you're just mad because you didn't get your way on that zoning issue. And sorry, but "Albion Wilde" is not my mom.

"WTF''s comment came from IP address 72.83.64.128. I ran a trace and it comes from Vienna VA

You've had your fun, and now any more comments from you or anyone I suspect is you will be deleted.